Discussion from here: Serious Play: The Occupy Movement and the Twin Horns of Oppression & Revolution
and Reply to post @ "Who Am I This Time?"
Guess we had some cross - wires.
According to who? Again, a more intelligent response would be to ask what I mean here. Since I separated oppression from social conditions, I must be referring to another kind of oppression. It may be true that not everyone FEELS equally oppressed, but that’s neither here nor there, since feelings change from moment to moment. Who are these people that you believe are out there, and what is your criteria for thinking that they are more oppressed than you—or that you are more oppressed than them?
As much as I claim not to know what is going on inside others, over the years I have learned that many people are suffering and unhappy and I used to be oblivious to what was going on around me. Sometimes even with closest friends and house-mates.
I would tune out other's condition and not pay attention to it. This is all part of the personal scale, rather than the global assessment of "State of the World".
I have also learned recently about myself that I've created a sily character out of myself - and really a dishonest one - since it does not honor others to deny my own power and be oblique, but it's become a habit. I did it when I was a pre-teenager. Or maybe even younger. Maybe 7. My best friend - baby sitter pointed it out when I was 7. I pretend to be dumb / stupid - with my voice and mannerisms - to deflect abuse. It's a character formation.
Yeah, there are people all around who suffer more than myself and who are suicidal etc. My own unsupported suffering left me. I wrote about it in my little chapter in "The Sync Book"
A few things I've learned recently: Looking at people's faces... I've learned a great deal. It's changed my life. Longer ago I learned that many people around me were suffering, but I wasn't paying attention. I always laid this down to me having suffered so intensely as a teenager, recovering, and thereafter having an aversion to emotional suffering. I barely survived my own so I was averse to taking on the emotional burden of others near me.
I am assuming that you do suffer, Jason, more than nothing. And perhaps we were writing on different wavelengths.
When I talk about the world-dysfunction I am pointing to the scale of massive illegal wars, phosphorous weapons, depleted uranium, young men mangled and then discarded into the streets (I see every day - begging here), cruelty, torture, starvation of millions of infants / children, starvation, poisoned and sub-standard food, suicide of whales, clear-cutting of the forests, digging up the mountains, animal testing on monkeys, torture, elimination of civil rights [in U.S.], preparation for fascist state, theft of the entire economy, loss of pensions, wasted whole lives, poor schools, ethnic haters, poor kids in my neighborhood - I saw their "Don Quixote" show. It's really a sad world.
Think about living in New York City as a researcher on the 9/11 false - flag - which was the pretense of murder and mayhem on a grand scale over-seas. It rained people on that day. Thousands hit the ground and splattered - the "jumpers" - this was a huge trauma for the witnesses. The psychos who did this not only have not been caught, but they haven't been slowed down. And successful writers have to repeat the official lie in order to pander to their in-the-dark audience. This is really stressful. This isn't "my-clothes-drier-is-on-the-blink" stressful.
Anyone is free to dismiss my "feelings" - since they are "just feelings" after all?!
My Guru even said, "If you knew the [relative] truth, if you *really knew the truth, you would cry." Lately, even the Swami Shankarananda, a very upbeat fellow, said: "The truth is not kind." "There is a polarity: truth vs. kindness."
Why would I deny that I am relatively privileged? My neighbors are pissed, since they regard me as privileged person and wonder why I am not doing more for those less privileged than myself. From their point of view, and they have told me so, I am privileged for being of European descent (a "white" person) and for being educated.
I remember when I was in India - I thought the Adivasi who helped me clean the kitchen at the Ashram where I stayed were so agile and quick compared to myself. They told me, "But we don't eat the food you do!" And kept repeating it! They were hungry. And I believe they, as a group, are even of shorter stature because of their limited caloric intake. Why would I dismiss their feelings and say, "But we are all one - feelings come and go."
Why would I second-guess them and say: "But we all have the same inner obstacles?"
Why should I say we are all equal in our challenges/ obstacles? Those without food have a "first - things - first" issue. I, naturally, didn't even notice the food disparity. But those who are abused by the system, to a greater degree than myself, notice it and point it out to me. Why would I deny that? When they told me they were jealous of the food I ate compared to their own - why would I label that an ephemeral feeling and, therefore, beside the point?
Would, to do so, be self - serving?
My girlfriend, who teaches school in the Catskills / Hudson Valley just wrote me there is not enough spaces, in the lunch food programs, for all the children who have no food. Is this a psychological issue, of the children's? No, but likely it will become one.
I admit I do not know what is really going on in any other person - they could be in bliss for all I know. They live in shacks, have never seen book or an airplane, they have not enough to eat. Why would I imagine or try to pretend that in terms of "mental obstacles" we are the same? I don't know that. To me, that would be the unsupported assumption.
I'm just lookng at the evidence without making assumptions or pleading special cases - there may be a rare case where a homeless vet begger with no legs is .... perfectly fine with what was done to him by the system. But for me to argue such a person is just as privileged as myself - who has all my limbs - and hey, no need to come out against war. ... "The beggar is smiling"... That's just self - serving.
Just look at the evidence and don't make assumptions.
And I'm arrogant for feeling the war could've been stopped had enough people put their minds to it? Or for feeling the veteran was mis-used by the system? I think that accusation is a psy-op - to get people to be ashamed to speak up and keep them supporting the status quo.
Anyway, I grew up in Beverly Hills and yes, material position does not bring happiness nor health - oftentimes. I saw that and my ambition was dampened by the ridiculousness of it.
I recently, in the past four years, lived in a intentional community / co-housing type situation. It was a fascinating experiment. I learned things probably others knew without having to go through what I went through. But I'm beating around the point - right... the problem is people, yeah, but also communication, desire, education and the system itself which has formed all of us. You can't escape that conditioning and formation of habit and group identity , easily.
“If we were to free our minds first, mightn’t we find that the system of oppression we exist under is exactly the way it is supposed to be, along with everything else?”
“Actually, No.”Implying that you have freed your mind but are still pissed off?
One thing to say here is "Who is 'We,'" Kemosabe?
Other people, obviously (to me ) do not work much on themselves - even in a yoga ashram; I found that. Even less so, the political folks. It's very discouraging and the main reason I gave up my natural interest in politics and world situation and concentrated for almost 20 years on yoga sadhana instead - was just that. The problem was people and unless that was cured there was no use working on the external; as I saw it.
Point being: Later, I came to the conclusion the encouragement - to give up engagement with the world and focus on the personal self, was a form of political propaganda, to make sure the most altruistic persons were siphoned off into activities whereby their energies would be washed down the drain. Both are needed, (obviously, to me) engagement with the "world" and work on one's self.
The particular brand of yoga taught by my teacher was not life denying, in any way. There was no need, in his view, to retreat from the world. In fact, he taught us that the greatest challenges would come from being "in the world" And that to "leave" it, and retire to a cave, would not create a true test of our equanimity.
I don't self-identify as "pissed - off" over the world situation. I'd call it deeply sorrowful.
I grew tired of what I perceived as the narcissism of preoccupation with one's sadhana / spiritual growth; when the world was progressing rapidly to destruction; when it was being torn up. I became originally an eco - activist with a special interest in toxic waste issues and forestry. I felt at least a token resistance was necessary for my peace of mind and heart. Even though, I knew my difference was too small to make a real difference and I wasn't very able to convince others. So there was a bit of quixotic defiance to my stubbornness which likely created what others would perhaps see as a crank. But so be it. I stood for something different.
I was very influenced by bio-regionalism. There was a "magic" strand in those gatherings which definitely connected to what I've now found termed "synchromysticism"
“People who are shallow can only imagine a shallow motive in others?”
Are you saying that I am shallow? That’s a first.
Yeah, I mis-wrote. People who care about larger issues than their immediate family, survival and comfort are not automatically crazy. And those who care only for those things are not automatically shallow.
People are so messed up in general I would say that's a reflection of the world and vis versa. Just listened to a humorous podcast by Robert Anton Wilson wherein he claimed: "Half of everyone is lower than average...one third are bat - shit nuts Kinda harsh but kinda funny. RAW blames it on the "education" system and so do I.
“First you say the protesters are too serious. Now you are saying "would they still 'have fun' if they knew it was doing nothing?" Make up your mind.”
The two points are the same. What page are you on?
I couldn't figure out how they would stop laughing / having fun, when they weren't laughing to start.
Reminds me of a joke from "The Name of the Rose" [terrible book IMO, this joke/punchline was the only good part]
~paraphrase
"Why did Jesus never laugh? "
"He was omniscient and knew what his followers would do in his name."
“Do you secretly envy the sheepsies, is that the problem?”
I have no idea where you are going at this point.
I had the notion you might have a motive to make the protesters wrong, pitiful as they are, since they had a goal, an ideal, chimerical as it may be - but it buoys them. My friend Joel is just continuing with the protests ( he goes to hundreds, and for many years.) [Longer story] But he is going to this one now [lives there and at the court house for the cases proceeding out of the Occupy), since he doesn't believe we will be able to do it forever. Joel believes the time is coming when such protests will be forbidden. And so it's like a last hurrah, to keep attending. Do it while we can, is his idea.
What there is, perhaps, is a clearing the ground, a razing, not for some utopian edifice to be constructed but for an unknown new life to burst forth, over time, from that charred land.
“RIGHT! Talk about mirroring: This is exactly and precisely the line of the New World Order-ers.... FIRE will CLEANSE. "Let's have a HOLOCAUST!" Seems to be moving to some point / moment.”
A collective “sacrifice,” almost certainly. It’s not my idea, or that of the “elite,” IMO.
But it happened.
And another events are planned and have been successful since.
9/11 was not a one - off.
The motif is the same: the utopian and the NWO - that's why I say it's a mirror. And you may not even consciously know that is what you seem to be referring to? That's the alleged plan of the NWO. It's not really "new." But the destruction of the old is the design to fertilize the ground of the "New Court." The Phoenix is the motif.
Very interesting post.
ReplyDeleteBriefly: suffering, yes of course, everyone suffers and my own load has been inordinate of late, so I myself DON’T personally know many people whom I would consider as suffering more than I am, at present. On the other hand, I am certainly “privileged,” with a cozy set up and all the free time I want, and basically everything a person could want besides companionship. I have never, throughout these various posts, been referring to any sort of material circumstances, however, as I consider that to be largely irrelevant. Having been at both extremes myself, wealth and abject poverty, I know that it makes little difference to my internal state. Of course, everyone wants to be comfortable, but we also adapt to our circumstances, and what counts more, to me, than comfort, is authenticity and engagement.
To be clear, when I say that we are all equally oppressed, here’s my reasoning: if there is a natural state of “enlightenment” that entails freedom from the false identity-virus of “ego,” then either we are free of it or we are not free. I would question the assumption that there are gradations in-between enlightenment and unenlightenment, and that we are all somewhere on a scale or bell curve of awareness . In which case, everyone who is not enlightened, i.e., in their natural state of being and free from the foreign installation of the false ID, is equally oppressed. I didn’t spell it out before because I figured anyone could simply ask, if they wanted to know, and because I didn’t want to get into “flyer minds” and matrix-terminology, or talk about enlightenment, as these are all things that are open to multiple interpretations. As, evidently, is the idea of “oppression.”
In the end we can only base our opinions on our experience, and mine is that, unpleasant as externally oppressive circumstances may be, they do not necessarily increase my sense of inner oppression, and can even reduce or resolve an inner blockage, over time. Hence the idea that people’s circumstances need to be improved to increase their awareness, while there’s some truth in it (a sick body usually leads to a sick mind, so to speak), it’s not an absolute truth, IMO, and can even be the reverse. (When we are comfortable and content, we tend to slip into mechanical behavior or ego inflation.)
Beyond that, I tend to think that, by and large, people who want to help others - in a general sense, i.e., on “principal” - are being driven by guilt or other patterns. Isn’t it enough to be present and supportive of the people we encounter already, on a day to day basis, without going out looking for causes? This goes double when helping others involves identifying their supposed oppressors and “the psychos who are raping the earth,” etc., etc. This screams out at me of past, unresolved issues in your life, and of the very kind of drive that turns people into psychos. “Battle not with monsters lest you become a monster.” (Nietzche again.)
In the end, it’s largely circumstantial, however, and maybe the major mistake is creating a philosophy out of one’s direct experiences, which it looks as though we both have done, and which probably all serious thinkers do, for a time at least.
(cont in next post)
I would agree that sorrow is the underlying truth of our reality, at this time. I would perhaps disagree that there is any need to “fix” that, but only a need to allow ourselves to let in that sorrow, and the remorse of having contributed, in whatever ways, to the fucked up world in which we now live. Blaming others, even in a more “enlightened way (social conscience, etc.), seems to me to prevent that from happening, which is what makes it so attractive.
ReplyDeleteI have never proscribed yoga or meditation techniques, going inward or withdrawing from the world, as a means to become more aware. What I’m proscribing is seeing the external problems we are engaged with, local or global, as reflecting our own inner distortions, and so embracing them as true teachers. Do not kill the messenger. In this case, the world is the messenger. Trying to change the world strengthens the illusion of there being a world to change. There is no external world of objects. There is only energy in constant flux and flow, and our perception of that energy. It’s our perception that makes the world, and nothing else. There are no “psychos” outside of your perception of them.
Regarding your last point, I've talked at length, possibly on the last stormy weather podcast, about why I don’t believe that the “elite,” or the powers that be, etc., intend to bring about a mass death holocaust, because their hegemony depends on maintaining large numbers. A smaller population would be much more unified and much more likely to reach agreement than a larger one. It is much easier to herd large numbers of people than small numbers, because of “the herd mentality.” The larger the group, the lower the consciousness of its members. Another strike against mass movements, IMO.
The collective sacrifice, if it is to come, is something that nature itself is bringing about. But if you wish to point your finger at Mother Nature, be my guest.
That is, needless to say, only my (biased) opinion.
"This screams out at me of past, unresolved issues in your life, and of the very kind of drive that turns people into psychos. “Battle not with monsters lest you become a monster.” (Nietzche again.) "
ReplyDeleteIt's coincidental you say that, since I was just thinking about *you:
"Perhaps Jason's fighting his ego so much and so hard is what is giving it its strenght."
Think I mentioned: the fake Guru I followed (it was nespotism of a sort which got her installed after the Mu ("Baba" father figute) died), was always abusing people and claiming she was helping them spiritualy to get rid of their ego. lol
I think I mentioned this to you before? Despot.
Anyway, what I noticed in the Ashram community was the very folks who needed to build their egos, since their self-esteem was dangerously weak and too low for normal life or health; were the very one's with all the ansgt over their ego's "being too big" lol
And the one's with the power trips and dominence issues couldn't care less about the size or not of their "egos." They had other goals.
I distrust anyone who would try to kill my ego. Including myself. There's always an ulterior motive, like "Enlightenment."
I'm sorry to repeat, if I am. I may be a broken reord on this subject - But "getting rid of the ego" or "total renunciation" ... if you graph the approach to the goal, you find a asymptote. Sort of like CERN approaching the God particle. It's not a spectrum, per se; it just may be naturally impossible - since it's not meant to be as "we think" it is. Our mental standard of what that entails may be off.
Being a female who is oldish, I will get the harsh mother / witch / smelly hag kind of projections. What shadow I am actually throwing as opposed to what is beamed my way, is difficult to sort. I have an Uranus - Mars opposition in my 1st and 7th house respectively - square to Neptune in the 4th. What other's might call fanaticism (Uranus - Mars) I call intensity and commitment, Stamina (mars in capricorn) and toleration for intensity. ;)
But when I fall ill - it really goes! Neptune square there, in the fourth, means if I don't live in an Ashram or near one, I'll likely be in a drug den / party house with thieves, provocateurs and hit men. No joke.
Will listen to the podcast. Thanx.
"Perhaps Jason's fighting his ego so much and so hard is what is giving it its strenght."
ReplyDeleteThe same idea's come up at the blog
Couldn't find that on your blog. What I found there was: Trying to persuade other's that the inner work is more important than the political / exterior work means, anyway, that there is something you are trying to change in others. And so what is the difference from being invested or committed to changing others' inside or outside.
ReplyDeleteI thinking from listening to the podcast you pointed me to and which summarized your views: The premises of how reality is structured is the difference. It makes no sense to change the "outer" when it's just a stage set or dream matrix.
Almost done with the podcast now
http://stormyweather.podomatic.com/entry/index/2009-08-31T20_30_13-07_00